Dead Man Walking Transmission Transcript
READ & INTERVIEW: Giddens Show Intro & Peter Gelb interview
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Hello. I’m Rhiannon Giddens. Welcome to the new season of the Met Live in HD. In the 1980s, a Catholic nun in Louisiana struck up an unlikely relationship with a convicted murderer awaiting his execution date on death row. Sister Helen Prejean’s arduous journey to help this man achieve spiritual redemption would become the basis of her best-selling memoir Dead Man Walking. The book inspired an Academy Award-winning film and the opera you’re about to see.
Today Jake Heggie and Terrence McNally’s Dead Man Walking has been performed on the world stages more than any other new opera of the past 25 years. Joining me now to speak about this seminal work is Met General Manager Peter Gelb. Hello, Peter.
PETER GELB: Hi, Rhiannon. Thank you so much for being our host today. You know, this is the 17th, uh, season of the Met Live in HD shows and we’re lucky that we finally have you hosting it. You k now, you are such a – a booster of opera, supporter of opera, besides being, uh, such an accomplished performer and composer. Um, and, you know, we’re particularly grateful for your, um, Aria – Aria Code series, which has, uh, supported the Met and this art form. So, we’re grateful for your being here today. Thank you.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, I’m so happy to be here talking to you about this incredible opera. Can you tell me what does it mean for the Met to have Dead Man Walking open your season?
PETER GELB: Well, it really symbolizes what we’re trying to do with the art form, which is to really demonstrate to audiences today that opera is an art form that relates to the world in which we live. Uh, you know, we certainly – we’ll always have room for the great classics and – and their timeless themes but any opera season now has to include new work. And Dead Man Walking, which is the most, uh, successful opera – new opera of the 21st century and the message that it – that it imparts of spiritual redemption, uh, and also deals with this very difficult issue of – of the death penalty, is I think an appropriate way to demonstrate how important opera is as an art form for audiences today.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Absolutely. And I notice that Dead Man Walking is us the first of three Met premieres in the first couple months of the season. And there’s more new work coming up later. So, why this emphasis on new and recent operas now? And some would say, finally.
PETER GELB: Well, finally is a good – is a good – is a good point because we should’ve been doing it sooner. And, uh, but better late than never.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: That’s right.
PETER GELB: And, you know, so we’re catching up and we are – we want to make sure that this season, you know, demonstrates to audiences just how important new work can be. We have, uh – after Dead Man Walking we have Florencia en el Amazonas, the opera about the life of Malcolm X, um, many new works that will be filling our repertoire this season.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, this is a very exciting start to, as you were saying, a very exciting season, Peter. Thank you so much for speaking with me.
PETER GELB: And, you know, I want – I should – I would be remiss in not – in not congratulating you for your new opera, Omar, which recently won the Pulitzer Prize, so congratulations.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Thank you so much.
PETER GELB: Thank you.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Today’s performance stars beloved mezzo soprano Joyce DiDonato, who has made Sister Helen one of her signature roles. Bass-baritone Ryan McKinny sings the role of Joseph De Rocher, the convicted murderer struggling to come to terms with his execution. Mezzo soprano Susan Graham is Joseph’s mother, who makes a heartrending plea for her son’s life. And soprano Latonia Moore is Sister Helen’s fellow nun and confidante.
This gripping human drama is placed front and center in acclaimed director Ivo van Hove’s stripped down production, which makes powerful use of video projections to help tell the story. Met music director Yannick Nézet-Séguin is ready to go to the pit. Here is Dead Man Walking.
INTERVIEW: Giddens w/ Joyce DiDonato & Ryan McKinny
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Joyce, Ryan, bravissimi. What an intense and emotional first act. That was incredible.
RYAN MCKINNY: Thank you. Yeah.
JOYCE DIDONATO: Was that only the first act? (Laughs)
RYAN MCKINNY: Only one down, huh?
JOYCE DIDONATO: One down, yeah.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I can’t believe I have to make you answer these questions but I have a few for you. We heard you sing Sister Helens’ great aria “This Journey” and this opera is truly an emotional journey for you. You’re clearly so connected to the real life Sister Helen. And what’s your relationship with this amazing woman?
JOYCE DIDONATO: I mean, uh, she lifts you higher. She calls you to be something higher than you are when you first meet her, and she continues to do that. She called me this morning and she said, don’t forget, this – this piece is bigger than all of us.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Wow.
JOYCE DIDONATO: And she just continues to show up. You’ll hear her say over and over I’ll be there, I’m here, I’ll be there, I’m here. She shows up. And when you encounter that and you literally walk in her shoes and sing those words – words, um, you can’t walk away and leave it behind like some other roles.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I mean, these are the people that we need evermore these days, right?
JOYCE DIDONATO: You’re one of them. Oh, yeah. So are you, Ryan.
RYAN MCKINNY: That’s nice.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, speaking of Ryan – playing Joseph De Rocher must be intense. You know, how do you find a connection with someone who has committed such horrible acts?
RYAN MCKINNY: So, any time – I play a lot of, quote-unquote, “bad guys”, um, and I really try to treat them all as full human beings. Um, I also have a friend who was on death row, who passed away earlier this year, and I – I visited him a few times, and having a connection to real people who are experiencing these things helps. I mean, he – this character did a horrible thing and yet, he’s still a human being and I think that’s really at the center of the show.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: That’s kind of the whole point, right?
RYAN MCKINNY: Yeah.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Finding the humanity. You two are playing people who have entered the cultural consciousness really, thanks in part to the Oscar-winning film by Tim Robbins, starring Susan Sarandon and Sean Penn, of course. And the chemistry between the two of them is the center of that story. How do you find the chemistry between the two of you?
JOYCE DIDONATO: Well, one thing that’s very easy is Terrence McNally handed it to us on a silver platter. I mean, the libretto of this – it was his first opera – there’s no bigger opera fan in the universe than Terrence. And he really knew how to get to the crux of the character. Within one sentence you know who they are. But I think what Ryan and I both enter into this is, again – as he said, you know, we look at these as real characters; not a nun and a convict, but as real humans. And really at the core of it – as you’ll see as we continue Act Two, it’s a love story. It’s an incredible pure love story about two people who meet where they are with all their flaws, all their weaknesses and they say I see you and I’m going to open to you and I’m going to love you.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.
RYAN MCKINNY: And I think that the – the trust that – at least I feel from you that – the space that you create for us to go through this together, I think it’s so important. So, no matter who’s out there, what kind of day we’re having, there’s this kind of safe space to play, both this kind of butting heads that we have in Act One and then also the way it develops into this real love story later and all the vulnerability that comes with that.
JOYCE DIDONATO: Generous colleagues help, like Ryan. (Laughs)
RHIANNON GIDDENS: (Laughs) Absolutely. Well, Joyce, Ryan, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
RYAN MCKINNY: Of course.
JOYCE DIDONATO: Thanks, Rhiannon.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: It’s a joy.
JOYCE DIDONATO: Welcome to the HD Metropolitan Opera family.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Whooo! Thank you. (Laughs)
OUTCUE/Throw to tape
RYAN MCKINNY: I mentioned earlier that Dead Man Walking is the most successful new opera of the past 25 years. But when he received the commission to write the opera, Jake Heggie was a young, untested composer with limited artistic credits to his name. We spoke to him recently about how his maiden voyage into the world of opera dramatically changed his life and career.
ROLL-IN B: Jake Heggie feature
JAKE HEGGIE: I was working in the PR/Marketing office of the San Francisco Opera as a writer, and I was writing songs for great singers of that time, mid-‘90s, when out of the blue, Lotfi Mansouri, the impresario and General Director of the San Francisco Opera, said, “Well, I think you're a theater composer. And I want to send you to New York to meet with Terrence McNally. I’ve been trying to get him to write a libretto, and I think you guys might be a great team.” And who was I to say no to that offer?
So, I jumped through that door, and I went to New York and met with Terrence McNally, and he said, “I have these ten ideas for an opera, but I only really want to do one of them, and I'm not going to tell you which one, because we both have to feel the same way about it.”
14:39:45 And he said, “I was thinking of Dead Man Walking.” And I told him to stop. Every hair on my head went up. I could feel the chill and the rush. I just knew it was the right thing. It was a big, emotional story, big enough to fill an opera house. And he goes, “Yes, that's the one I want to do.”
We reached out to Sister Helen Prejean, who called me personally and said, “Jake, this is Sister Helen. Now, I hear you want to write an opera based on Dead Man Walking, and you know what I said to that, Jake?” And I said, “No.” And she said, “I said, of course we're going to make an opera on Dead Man Walking. But Jake, I don't know a boo scat about opera, so you're going to have to educate me. Now, first, you don't write this atonal stuff, right? I mean, we’re gonna have a tune we can hum?”
And I assured her I’m a very lyrical composer, I love soaring voices. And the other thing was, she says, “I know you're gonna have to change things. I only ask that it remain a story of redemption.” And I said, “Absolutely, that is the whole point.”
My job as a theater composer is to find the music of the world they’re living in and let them sing to me. Sister Helen's journey is not easy for her. She’s in a major spiritual crisis. And Joseph’s was indeed very, very challenging because he’s a human being, first and foremost, that winds up facing very, very difficult challenges. And so my job was to channel how he’s had to deal with his place in the world to survive, and where it has led him.
What I think this production does is it puts the drama and the conflicts front and center, and you literally can't look away. There's no place to hide, there's nothing extraneous on the set, and in fact you can't look away so much that it's projected: “Look at this.”
This is something that people very often think about in the abstract. And this takes it out of the abstract and puts a human face on it right in front of you. And says: so, how do you feel about it now? Is it that easy to say, yeah, that person should die, that person should live? Or is it more complicated than that?
I’ve never experienced that in another production to that degree. You know, the story is the story, and it unfolds as it does, but to have a brilliant, uh, director and design team like this take it on with such heart, that speaks volumes to me. And I think they grab you by the throat right from the beginning and don’t let you go.
GIDDENS w/ Susan Graham
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I agree. This production seizes your attention and demands that you bear witness. Now I get to speak with the legendary soprano Susan Graham, who originated the role of Sister Helen at Dead Man Walking’s world premiere in San Francisco 23 years ago. Susan, hello.
SUSAN GRAHAM: Hi. How are you?
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I am good. I’m so happy to be talking to you for just a few minutes. Your performance is packed with raw emotion. Can you tell us a little bit more about your role?
SUSAN GRAHAM: Well, the mother of Joe De Rocher is a particular character. She is raw, she is frustrated, she is out of her element, she is uneducated, she is poor, and she finds herself in this situation that she has no idea how to navigate. And in finding my way to her and through her, I just have to go as deeply real as I can possibly go and imagine. I mean, I know people like her in Louisiana, in Texas, in the south. I – I – I grew up in the southwest and, um, so she’s not an unfamiliar person to me. But the depth of her feeling is something that’s really been fascinating to try and plumb, you know, and to discover with Ryan and Joyce and this whole cast. It’s been an amazing, um, experiment that, uh, has been very rewarding and gratifying.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, it must be very interesting to be on that side character-wise, because you created the role of Sister Helen in the year 2000. What are your memories of working on the opera back then?
SUSAN GRAHAM: Oh, honey. Every day in rehearsal, we were inventing this thing that we didn’t know what it was. You know, it hadn’t been done for 23 years, like it has now. We had the notes on the page and we knew what the music was but we didn’t have any idea about the dynamic between the characters that would unfold in each new scene that we rehearsed. And it was – it was life-changing and heart-wrenching and, um, it changed me as an artist and as a person.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, in the midst of all that discovery, did you have any idea it was going to be such a lasting success and you’d be doing it now?
SUSAN GRAHAM: I mean, none of us did, you know?
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.
SUSAN GRAHAM: We knew it was really, really special but it – it – the resonance that it has had throughout the world, over 70 productions worldwide, is a surprise sort of to all of us. Nobody more than Jake, you know?
RHIANNON GIDDENS: A welcome – a welcome one for sure.
SUSAN GRAHAM: Yeah. And creating the role of Sister Helen, she is a – she is the rock of the piece. She is – has to hold everybody else together. Now, Mama gets to go to the depths of emotion and hold nothing back, so...
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, I don’t think audiences will ever forget your aria in front of the pardon board. And thank you so much. It’s been wonderful to talk to you.
SUSAN GRAHAM: A pleasure to talk to you too. Thank you.
READ: Throw to tape
SUSAN GRAHAM: The world-renown Belgian theatre director Ivo van Hove made his Met debut last spring with a spellbinding new production of Mozart’s Don Giovanni, which he placed in a modern architectural setting to bring the story closer to home. Now he’s back with this production, which speaks to today’s audience in profound ways. We spoke to him recently about the moral complexities and theatrical possibilities of Dead Man Walking.
ROLL-IN C: Ivo van Hove feature
IVO VAN HOVE: Well, Dead Man Walking fundamentally puts the question forward, if we, as a society, deserve to kill, even when the person that we want to kill, or think that we should kill, is a killer himself. And it’s also about forgiveness.
This relationship starts with two persons that are totally opposite to each other – the killer, the murderer, and a sister. You see two people that get to know each other, that get to know each other’s strengths and each other’s weaknesses. And you see them quarreling and you see them also having a deep connection and wanting to get a solution, you know? And the whole complexity of that makes it like a beautiful, sometimes cruel, uh, but also, uh, lovable at the end of the day.
The challenge, though, was how to bring this to the stage, you know? And we chose to do it in a not naturalistic way – you won't see a real prison on stage. We thought that the space would be much more minimalistic using some elements of a prison – the starkness of it, everything is taken away. It’s not a place that, that – where you can really live. And, of course, also the fact that suddenly a door can open and it can close. And when it's closed, you’re locked in again. When it’s open, you know, it will be like somebody was coming to say things that you don’t want to hear. It’s sometimes very dark, with a lot of fog. The violent tension is enormous. It’s as if you – you would enter hell. And we hope that this minimalistic, uh, staging and minimalistic set would have a maximal effect.
The use of the video is – is very important. Of course, in the beginning, the prelude, you know, which is like minutes, and there we – we decided also to show the whole full murder: how it happened, why it happened, you know? I think it was very necessary to give the so-called objective truth about the killing, so that when he says later, “I didn't do it,” you know, well, we saw you doing it.
I’m very much aware that the death penalty is really, uh, still an issue, an issue, a societal issue, you know, that people are against it and in favor of it. And as a director, I’m not so interested in giving my opinion, you know? I’m much more interested in giving different opinions. What can you think about it? As an audience you have the time, uh, to also make up your own minds. And that’s what I like about it a lot.
READ: Funding / Throw to break
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Ivo van Hove is undoubtedly one of today’s theatrical visionaries. The Met’s Live in HD Series is made possible thanks to its founding sponsor, the Neubauer Family Foundation. Digital support is provided by Bloomberg Philanthropies. The Met Live in HD Series is supported by Rolex. Today’s performance of Dead Man Walking will be heard later this season over the Robert K. Johnson Foundation Metropolitan Opera International Radio Network. We’ll be back after a break.
READ: Throw to roll-in
JOYCE DIDONATO: Hi, my name is Joyce, and I first came to Sing Sing in 2015, and I brought opera here. It was one of the weirdest nights of my life, because I never imagined that we could have a connection musically from you guys and the world of opera.
It’s pretty extraordinary to me to see my various families coming together and creating a bigger one. Um, to the cast of Dead Man Walking, for the men in the program, our chorus, or those of you who are here supporting, our circle is a bit bigger today than it was the last couple of times. But please trust that that sense of trust and safety is here as well.
SISTER HELEN PREJEAN: There is no place on earth, today, at this time, that I would rather be. This is a sacred gathering. You are not alone in this room. You are with a community, and we’re going to do this, and we are going to create beauty today. And you’re going to feel your heart swelling…
MICHAEL SHANE HALE: Today we are performing in the opera Dead Man Walking. It’s this incredible collaboration between The Metropolitan Opera and Carnegie Hall, and it’s at Sing Sing Correctional Facility.
JOYCE DIDONATO: Gentlemen, what’s the first word? Basses, what’s the first word? Okay that’s like “he,” remember, “he!” What’s the first word? “He!” Now, so, if you get that you’re good.
MICHAEL SHANE HALE: When you think about the intersections of crime, justice, the legal system, the death penalty, remorse, redemption, uh, intersecting inside of a maximum security prison, it’s – it’s mindboggling.
LATONIA MOORE: You know, so getting to hear y’all inhabit this energy is so great. So, even if you feel like you’re messing up or not sounding good and it’s not, like, perfect, please give it, because y’all are giving me new energy for real. I mean, I just love it.
SISTER HELEN REJEAN: Prison is a brutalizing place because it strips you, in so many ways of your dignity and your humanity – if you let it. And they get a lot of signals around that. That you’ve messed up and you’re not worth anything. Plus, they live in a kind of exile, so they find themselves alone. And then what I could see, though, in their faces when they were entrusted with music and to learn music, the cell bars dropped away for a brief and shining moment, and they were part of a community of beauty.
MICHAEL SHANE HALE: Well, Joyce, I’ve gotten to work with her a couple of times now, and she’s just one of those people that thinks she can change the world. (Laughs) I don't know, she just really believes in people. She – her compassion and – and the fact that she believes in love and the power of love to transform, you know, situations and people and stuff.
I’m a person that, nearly 30 years ago, I took someone's life. And I could never change that. And for me, those issues, like, I live with those issues every day.
SISTER HELEN PREJEAN: When you looked out over into the faces of the, what, 150 or so people who came, their own peers who came to hear them, that was just very, very special. I felt their humanity, and that everybody could see their humanity.
MICHAEL SHANE HALE: I guess what I would hope is that people would walk away with the sense that, I don’t know, maybe that sounds cliché, but like, you know, you’re not your worst choice, you’re not your worst mistake, but that you are capable of doing something really meaningful and positive.
SISTER HELEN PREJEAN: They showed they could do something trustworthy, and I think they sensed that the prison itself was proud of them. And I don’t know that they had ever had that experience, but I think it triggered their own selfhood, their own sense of agency in themselves.
READ: PSA / Fundraising / Throw to HD Season Preview
RHIANNON GIDDENS: The Sing Sing project was a collaboration of the Met and Carnegie Hall, whose Musical Connections Program has invited artists like Joyce to teach and make music with the men at the correctional facility for a number of years. What an overwhelming emotional experience this was for the men and for the Met company. I did a workshop in performance with the men at Sing Sing a few years ago and I can tell you it was an incredibly intense and rewarding experience.
The reaction to this run of Dead Man Walking at the Met has been remarkable, leaving some members of its audience in tears. And the power of Dead Man Walking is surely translating onto movie screens today. But I have to tell you as shattering as today’s opera is in cinemas, it’s just not the same as being here inside the Metropolitan Opera House. Nothing compares to witnessing incomparable artistry here live. So, please, come to the Met or visit your local opera company.
And if you’re looking for yet another way to experience the magic of opera, check out our podcast Aria Code. It has been a thrill for me to host this podcast and we just launched our fourth season with an episode on Dead Man Walking.
Today’s opera is part of the Met’s bold mission to present more new and recent operas on this stage. Giving audiences operatic stories they can relate to is an essential part of the plan to keep opera thriving and relevant. But staging increased numbers of Met premieres comes at considerable expense. Ticket sales alone cannot cover the costs. The Met relies on opera lovers like you to help make up the difference. If you’re able to make a donation, please visit metopera.org/membership or call us at 1-800-MET-OPERA. You can also text HDLIVE to 44321 to make a contribution. Thank you for your support of the Met.
Today is the first performance of the Met’s 17th season of live cinema presentations, and the next one is also a contemporary masterpiece. Anthony Davis’ X: The Life and Times of Malcolm X tells the tumultuous story of the fiery civil rights leader in an imaginative new production by director Robert O’Hara. Baritone Will Liverman stars in the title role of this landmark premiere, which is sure to be one of the artistic events of the fall. The performance will be seen live in movie theatres on November 18th.
X is one of eight more cinema transmissions this season. Here’s a look at what’s coming up.
INTERVIEW: Giddens w/ Maestro Yannick Nézet-Séguin
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I’m in the maestro’s dressing room with Met Music Director Yannick Nézet-Séguin. Hello, Yannick.
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Hello, Rhiannon.
RYAN MCKINNY: So nice to meet you.
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Nice to meet you too. Thank you for being here with us today.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, I’m delighted to ask a couple questions before you have to get back to the second act. You’ve made such a point of connecting new operas at the Met and all the new work being done here is – you know, it’s different from the canon. From your vantage point, what is special about Jake Heggie’s score for Dead Man Walking?
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: I think with this opera, Jake Heggie established himself two decades ago as the major voice of American, uh, opera repertoire. And it’s really – I will say it – it’s about time he comes at the Met. And we’ve been talking about bringing this opera early in my tenure, and I think he just gets the pacing, he just gets it right. He gets also the balance right. We had a lot of discussions about how we felt this opera should never stop, that it’s something the clock is ticking, you know, because that’s the – the story. And he’s just the warmest human being.
And I have to mention also, I feel like Terrence McNally’s libretto also is so great and I – I wish Terrence would be with us to hear this production.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: That’s what – they mentioned that earlier, how well it just gave them the relationship and set everything up for them.
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Absolutely. This is, uh – this is very unique. As you can probably tell, this was a very impactful work, teamwork from all the amazing cast. And the orchestra and the chorus also, they are so dedicated to this vision that I have now with new works and bringing this to our audiences. And I – I think this is only the beginning.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Excellent. You know, with Joyce DiDonato and Susan Graham you have two of the leading interpreters of Dead Man Walking. What was the process like for you working with these two iconic mezzo stars on a piece that’s so close to their hearts?
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Well, Joyce is a very close friend of mine. We collaborated a lot. We did piano recitals together, everything. And Susan Graham, a few concert performances. To have these icons of America and also feeling that they – they are the story of this opera. They were at the beginning. You know, Susan was at the premiere and Joyce has been singing this role for 20 years. So, I went into this very much asking them also for their input, their approach to the piece, so that I – I was not the maestro telling them what to do but just collectively bringing to life a piece that was so close to their hearts.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: And today’s the last performance of the run.
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Yeah.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: So, what do you – what do you think? What are your reflections as – as we’re about to end this – this particular run of the opera?
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: In a way, I’m – it’s always bittersweet to do this because, you know, this has been such an impact on New York audiences and now, hopefully, around the globe. Hi, Canada, by the way. But, um, I – I just hope that with this, we establish even more a regular approach to realities of our time. Presenting on our stage communities but also community – yeah, realities and things that really people can relate to now. And I think I have a job to go do. (Laughs)
RHIANNON GIDDENS: I think that’s your cue. So, thank you for talking to me. It’s been such a pleasure and good luck with Act Two.
YANNICK NÉZET-SÉGUIN: Thank you and see you soon. I’m going to conduct with the microphone I think.
RHIANNON GIDDENS: Excellent. (Laughs)
OUTCUE/SEGUE
RHIANNON GIDDENS: At the end of the previous act, Joseph De Rocher’s pardon has been denied and Sister Helen seems overwhelmed by the emotional stakes of her mission to save his soul. But this powerful story of personal redemption has only just begun. Here is the heart-wrenching Part Two of Dead Man Walking.